Cancer Treatment wait times....increasing under national healthcare system in Britain...

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by 2aguy, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. Confounding
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    Confounding Gold Member

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    There are Scandinavian countries with an over 90% approval rating of their public healthcare. The fact that the people there love it and don't want it to go anywhere, just improve, speaks for itself. The idea that they're just too ignorant to see that our way is better is fucking ludicrous. Our healthcare is only the best if you're rich and can afford to pay the most gifted doctors in the world to help you. Public healthcare options are better for the public at large. That's why people there love it and it's why it will never go away, ever. You people have been shouting that their system will collapse any second now for fucking decades. It won't though. It's not going to go away. No, it's not perfect and nothing can be, but they will never stop doing it. They will only seek to improve it. Also anecdotally I have been to Europe and talk to Europeans. They think we are fucking crazy.
     
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  2. Polishprince
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    Polishprince Gold Member

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    Actually, you don't have to be wealthy in America to get world class medical treatment, and that's the point.

    Plenty of people who are just scraping by, get world class treatment at facilities like the Cleveland Clinic or UPMC, that they can drive to.

    They don't have to get into a private jet and fly halfway across the world like Eurotrash do today to get decent treatment.
     
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  3. westwall
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    westwall Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    They can't improve it because there is no mechanism to do that. Nor is there accountability for the NHS failures.

    Can't fix what you won't acknowledge is broken.
     
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  4. Maxdeath
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    Maxdeath Gold Member

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    You seem to think that only the rich can get medical treatment in the U.S. Hate to throw a wrench into your whole narrative there but with my Blue Cross Blue shield I can go to any hospital any doctor. I am not limited to some backyard dog kennel. I don't have to go to a special hospital only because I am old. I don't have to wait eight months or over a year to see a doctor.

    I have insurance on my vehicles, my house even my life. I realize that some think it is worth the risk of not having health insurance is a good trade off to having that new iPhone or eating out every week.
     
  5. westwall
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    westwall Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    I think we all have seen how polls are unreliable. Don't you think?

    Instead of listening to what they say, take a look at what they do. If the European system's were so great, the rich and powerful wouldn't need to come here.

    Now would they.
     
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  6. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    Those systems are also running out of money, you doofus.

    Sweden...
    Crisis situation at Swedish hospitals | eurotopics.net



    Expressen is dismayed by the conditions in a country that calls itself a welfare state:
    “Not even children are spared in this crisis. At Stockholm's new Karolinska Hospital a third of the beds are empty and one in ten of the operations on children has been cancelled this year. ... The acute problem is the shortage of nurses. It is forcing hospitals to leave beds unused. ... Never before has so much money been allocated to the healthcare system, but it is being misused. The Social Democrats in Stockholm want people to come to the polyclinics for regular health checks.
    In other words completely healthy people use up resources that can barely cover the needs of the sick.
    The chronic crisis is undermining trust in the politicians. The question is whether Sweden can continue calling itself a social welfare state when children are dying unnecessarily.”
    --------
    In Aftonbladet's view the situation is above all the result of poor decisions at the political level:

    “Sweden has the fewest hospital beds per capita in Europe. So it's no wonder voters always put healthcare at the top of the list when asked what topics they see as most important. ... It's the politicians who have pushed health into the shadows. There was a time when the minister for social affairs was just as important as the finance minister. ... Then along came [the conservative government] and gave the smallest party [the Christian Democrats] the responsibility for healthcare. And this trend has continued under the Social Democrats. ... Sweden's public healthcare needs a crisis committee and a minister who can overhaul the entire system.”
    =========


    Norway.....

    Government Health Care Horror Stories from Norway

    I'll admit this: if, like me, you're a self-employed person with a marginal income, the Norwegian system is, in many ways, a boon – as long as you're careful not to get anything much more serious than a cold or flu.

    Doctors' visits are cheap; hospitalization is free. But you get what you pay for. There are excellent doctors in Norway – but there are also mediocrities and outright incompetents who in the U.S. would have been stripped of their licenses long ago. The fact is that while the ubiquity of frivolous malpractice lawsuits in the U.S. has been a disgrace, the inability of Norwegians to sue doctors or hospitals even in the most egregious of circumstances is even more of a disgrace.

    Physicians who in the U.S. would be dragged into court are, under the Norwegian system, reported to a local board consisting of their own colleagues – who are also, not infrequently, their longtime friends.

    (The government health system's own website puts it this way: if you suspect malpractice, you have the right to “ask the Norwegian Board of Health Supervision in your county to evaluate” your claims.)

    As a result, doctors who should be forcibly retired, if not incarcerated, end up with a slap on the wrist. When patients are awarded financial damages, the sums – paid by the state, not the doctor – are insultingly small.
    ------------

    Take the case of Peter Franks, whose doctor sent him home twice despite a tennis-ball-sized lump in his chest that was oozing blood and pus – and that turned out to be a cancer that was diagnosed too late to save his life. Apropos of Franks's case, a jurist who specializes in patients' rights lamented that the Norwegian health-care system responds to sky-high malpractice figures “with a shrug,” and the dying Franks himself pronounced last year that “the responsibility for malpractice has been pulverized in Norway,” saying that “if I could have sued the doctor, I would have. Other doctors would have read about the lawsuit in the newspaper. Then they would have taken greater care to avoid making such a mistake themselves. But doctors in Norway don't have to take responsibility for their mistakes. The state does it.” After a three-year legal struggle, Franks was awarded 2.7 million kroner by the Norwegian government – about half a million dollars.

    Another aspect of Norway's guild-like health-care system is that although the country suffers from a severe deficit of doctors, nurses, and midwives, the medical establishment makes it next to impossible for highly qualified foreign members of these professions to get certified to practice in Norway. The daughter of a friend of mine got a nursing degree at the University of North Dakota in 2009 but, as reported last Friday by NRK, is working in Seattle because the Norwegian authorities in charge of these matters – who have refused to be interviewed on this subject by NRK – have stubbornly denied her a license. Why? My guess is that the answer has a lot to do with three things: competence, competition, and control. If there were a surplus of doctors and nurses instead of a shortage, the good ones would drive out the bad. Plainly, such a situation must be avoided at all costs – including the cost of human lives.

    Then there's the waiting lists. At the beginning of 2012, over 281,000 patients in Norway, out of a population of five million, were awaiting treatment for some medical problem or other. Bureaucratic absurdities run rampant, as exemplified by thisAftenposten story from earlier this year:
     
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  7. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    And again...without the United States paying for their national defense, their medical innovation and drug development.....their systems would have crashed already....
     
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  8. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    You are wrong....you just have to look to see....

    ‘Socialist’ Nordic Countries Are Actually Moving Toward Private Health Care

    These are precisely the things Medicare for All would abolish. It’s intriguing that while socialists in America would rush to nationalize the health care system, Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes are all gradually increasing their use of private health insurance.

    Between 2006 and 2016, the portion of the population covered by private insurance increased by 4% in Sweden, 7% in Norway, and 22% in Denmark.

    The increases in Sweden and Norway are modest but noteworthy, considering that most out-of-pocket payments have a relatively low annual limit.

    Private plans in Sweden and Norway are mainly designed to supplement the government-run plan.

    In addition to covering out-of-pocket costs, these plans also guarantee prompt access to specialists or elective procedures, which the state plans often fail to provide.

    Denmark also allows “complementary” insurance plans, which cover services that are partially or not at all covered by the national system, including dental and vision services.

    This growing European interest in private health insurance typically stems from dissatisfaction with the state-run systems, which often provide poor or incomplete coverage and long wait times.

    By contrast, private plans offer wider coverage, shorter wait times, access to private facilities, and more flexibility in patient choice.

    For instance, in a 2009 survey, nearly half of Danes felt waiting times were unreasonable while only about a third disagreed. In 2007, the Danish government enacted a wait time guarantee of one month to receive treatment.

    Most of the private health insurance in Denmark, as well as in Sweden and Norway, is employer-based. In Denmark, the increase in private insurance is likely due, in part, to employers seeking to recruit top-tier talent by including health coverage as part of a benefits package.

    In turn, private insurers make a strong pitch to employers, informing them that having private coverage minimizes their employees’ time lost to illness and ensures they have prompt access to medical care.
     
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  9. Toro
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    Toro Diamond Member

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    Alex Trebek has lived in LA for 30 years. So it's not surprising he'd get treatment in the States.

    As someone who's family is from Saskatoon, I'll tell you this about about the US and Canadian systems. The US system has the most advanced treatment in the world. And as an upper middle-class person living in the US, I'd rather be in the US for medical care than in Canada. But if I were lower middle class or poor, I'd rather be in Canada.

    A friend of mine from MBA was living in NYC and moved back to Canada when she had to quit her job due to medical reasons because she could get better treatment in Canada in the US and didn't have medical coverage in the US.
     
  10. Polishprince
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    Polishprince Gold Member

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    This is what people really want. Top-tier medical talent to take care of them if they are really sick.

    Some governmental Dr. Feel Good that writes out scrips for 100 oxys or vykes for a stubbed toe is fine for someone who is young and in good health. But is someone is really sick, they want a doctor who knows what they are doing.
     

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