CDZ Liberty

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Porter Rockwell, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. Porter Rockwell
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    Porter Rockwell VIP Member

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    Today I found myself locked out of a thread here after a poster made a false accusation about me. It would have been inappropriate to change the topic anyway, so what this board needs is a thread about Liberty. Maybe that is an issue we should address for those who have the courage to discuss it. The Declaration of Independence states:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    Notice that I bolded some words because we have to discuss them. But first, Thomas Jefferson (who penned those words) said that the Declaration of Independence is "The Declaratory Charter of the Rights of Man." So, let's define Liberty:

    "Freedom; exemption from extraneous control. The power of the will, in its moral freedom, to follow the dictates of its unrestricted choice, and to direct the external acts of the individual without restraint, coercion, or control from other persons." (Black's Law Dictionary - Black's is the most authoritative legal dictionary within the legal community)

    What is LIBERTY? definition of LIBERTY (Black's Law Dictionary)

    America was founded on this presupposition that a Creator, a God (whomever each of us deems that to be) bestowed upon each person, at birth, unalienable Rights. Among those Rights is the Right of Liberty. Unfortunately, government and the English language make things almost impossible to understand so government grants privileges that they call "rights," but they are still privileges in my opinion since you have to ask for permission before you can get them. What government gives, government can withhold and even take away.

    Unalienable Rights, being given by a Creator (if you believe in God) OR expressed in a state of being are inherent, absolute, natural, irrevocable and above the reach of government. I'd like to give you a couple of court rulings to illustrate the depth of these unalienable Rights:

    By the "absolute rights" of individuals is meant those which are so in their primary and strictest sense, such as would belong to their persons merely in a state of nature, and which every man is entitled to enjoy, whether out of society or in it. The rights of personal security, of personal liberty, and private property do not depend upon the Constitution for their existence. They existed before the Constitution was made, or the government was organized. These are what are termed the "absolute rights" of individuals, which belong to them independently of all government, and which all governments which derive their power from the consent of the governed were instituted to protect.” People v. Berberrich (N. Y.) 20 Barb. 224, 229; McCartee v. Orphan Asylum Soc. (N. Y.) 9 Cow. 437, 511, 513, 18 Am. Dec. 516; People v. Toynbee (N. Y.) 2 Parker, Cr. R. 329, 369, 370 (quoting 1 Bl. Comm. 123) - {1855}

    The absolute rights of individuals may be resolved into the right of personal security, the right of personal liberty, and the right to acquire and enjoy property. These rights are declared to be natural, inherent, and unalienable.” Atchison & N. R. Co. v. Baty, 6 Neb. 37, 40, 29 Am. Rep. 356 (1877)

    Men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,-'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;'and to 'secure,'not grant or create, these rights, governments are instituted..." BUDD v. PEOPLE OF STATE OF NEW YORK, 143 U.S. 517 (1892)

    If I have your attention and if this generates any interest, I'd like to explore this since both the left and right; conservative and liberal; Democrat and Republican appear to be after one group or another's Rights.


     
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  2. tyroneweaver
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    tyroneweaver Gold Member

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    Orin Porter Rockwell
    Joseph Smith's bodyguard...right?
     
  3. Porter Rockwell
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    Porter Rockwell VIP Member

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    Yeah, if I could accept Mormonism, he would be a hero to me. The Mormons are good people. Don't get me wrong. The church I was ordained in merged with the Mormons, but I could not accept the notion that Joseph Smith was anything other than a mortal, so I had to make an exit to do my own thing. But, yes, you are right.
     
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  4. tyroneweaver
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    tyroneweaver Gold Member

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    One Christmas decades ago I gave my father a thick book of his history.
     
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  5. Porter Rockwell
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    Porter Rockwell VIP Member

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    While the Declaration of Independence lays out the presupposition that every man has unalienable Rights, it took the Bill of Rights to guarantee those Rights.

    The Bill of Rights does not create Rights; it guarantees existing ones. The Constitution of the United States is best described as a Social Contract. So, it matters little whether you believe in God or not... some people make their minds up about Liberty based on getting their boxers in a bunch because Jefferson wrote "endowed by their Creator."

    At the end of the day you either believe that unalienable Rights are inherent, natural, irrevocable, absolute, and above the law OR you think that a majority can vote and your rights can go south to disappear where there is nothing you can do about it.

    ORIGINALLY, the United States Constitution was written as a contract between we, the people and that entity called government. The Preamble of the Constitution states that:

    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity..."

    Now, let's see if that is enough to whet anyone's appetite.
     
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  6. Agit8r
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    Agit8r Gold Member

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    "where there is no law, there is no freedom: for liberty is, to be free from restraint and violence from others; which cannot be, where there is no law: but freedom is not, as we are told, a liberty for every man to do what he lists: (for who could be free, when every other man's humour might domineer over him?)"
    -- John Locke; from Second Treatise on Civil Government
     
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  7. Porter Rockwell
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    Porter Rockwell VIP Member

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    Thank you for giving me a starting point. I found it in your byline.

    ONE of the hot topics in America is immigration. Immigration is misunderstood by over 90 percent of the people in America. For that reason I refer to people from foreign countries as foreigners - just as your byline in Deuteronomy does. Most people do not know what immigration is, so let me begin there:

    "Immigration - The coming Into a country of foreigners for purposes of permanent residence." Black's Law Dictionary

    When people say "illegals, illegal immigrants", etc. it is meaningless terminology. If someone seeks permanent residence, they become a citizen. If someone comes here to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered by the American people, they are simply foreigners.

    When our forefathers came to these shores, they are what is known as immigrants. So bear in mind, when Jefferson penned those words in the Declaration of Independence, there were no citizens of the United States because such a nation did not exist at that time. So, did Liberty apply to all men? That is a very complex question and that is why I'm doing this thread.

    Again, the left and the right; conservative and liberal; Democrat and Republican seem to have united against Liberty. The right conflates citizenship with Liberty while the left thinks a majority vote can be used to deprive people of Rights that were intended to be above the law.
     
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  8. Agit8r
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    Agit8r Gold Member

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    Unfortunately many people are unable or unwilling to think for themselves, and so they repeat the talking points that are thought up by snot-nosed congressional aids, and cable news writers. That is not a state of liberty. It is not the people governing themselves individually or collectively. It is allowing their strings to be pulled by those who hold economic and political power, to accomplish the ends that the oligarchy desires.
     
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  9. Porter Rockwell
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    Porter Rockwell VIP Member

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    I agree with you. Adding insult to injury, on these boards you have sheeple who have been conditioned, Pavlovian style, to react to certain stimuli, make baseless accusations, and then shut down mentally as well as emotionally. When I was viciously attacked in another thread I got locked out for reporting those who broke the rules. Even the mods and admin have a bias. Those who made the false accusations are not here to see that, while I'm white and care about my culture, heritage, history, etc. I do understand the concepts of Liberty and would never take it upon myself to deny another person their Right to Liberty. The political extremists (which are now a majority of all Americans) WILL put your Liberty into jeopardy.

    We all have a Right to Life, but that is no guarantee that someone else cannot kill you. But, since you DO have a Right to Life, if that Life is taken by your fellow man, the authorities are obligated to find and punish the killer. Imagine that the authorities quit doing what they were obligated to do. Imagine a dictator coming to power and saying to kill all the whites... or Jews... or Muslims... etc., etc. Pick any group. If the system no longer protected those people, they then have a Right, under our laws, to protect themselves. The same principle holds true for Liberty. It's going to be uncomfortable, however for both sides to understand what Liberty is AND their obligation to uphold principles when they end up having to defend people they don't like and don't agree with.
     
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  10. Flash
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    Flash Platinum Member

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    I would never consider myself to have Liberty when the government is trying to run my life by taking my money and giving it away to other people and then trying to control everything I do like owning firearms or or having free speech.

    For instance, I think it is robbing me of my Liberty by having the 1964 Civil Rights law. Why can't I hire, fire or sell my house to whoever I want? Why does the friggin filthy oppressive government put restrictions on me to not be able to discriminate to my heart's content?
     
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