CDZ Moses Was a Real Historical Person

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by JimBowie1958, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    Oh, my translations I am familiar with say he gave Israel the task of building bricks without straw, not anything about building on mud.

    That is an interesting take I am unfamiliar with, or don't remember with my senility.

    Exodus chapter 5:
    4 But the king of Egypt said, “Moses and Aaron, why are you taking the people away from their labor? Get back to your work!”
    5 Then Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land are now numerous, and you are stopping them from working.”
    6 That same day Pharaoh gave this order to the slave drivers and overseers in charge of the people:
    7 “You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw.
    8 But require them to make the same number of bricks as before; don’t reduce the quota. They are lazy; that is why they are crying out, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to our God.’
    9 Make the work harder for the people so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies.”
    10 Then the slave drivers and the overseers went out and said to the people, “This is what Pharaoh says: ‘I will not give you any more straw.
    11 Go and get your own straw wherever you can find it, but your work will not be reduced at all.’”
    12 So the people scattered all over Egypt to gather stubble to use for straw.
    13 The slave drivers kept pressing them, saying, “Complete the work required of you for each day, just as when you had straw.” 14 And Pharaoh’s slave drivers beat the Israelite overseers they had appointed, demanding, “Why haven’t you met your quota of bricks yesterday or today, as before?”
    15 Then the Israelite overseers went and appealed to Pharaoh: “Why have you treated your servants this way?
    16 Your servants are given no straw, yet we are told, ‘Make bricks!’ Your servants are being beaten, but the fault is with your own people.”
    17 Pharaoh said, “Lazy, that’s what you are—lazy! That is why you keep saying, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to the Lord.’
    18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw, yet you must produce your full quota of bricks.”
    19 The Israelite overseers realized they were in trouble when they were told, “You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day.”
    20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them,
    21 and they said, “May the Lord look on you and judge you! You have made us obnoxious to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  2. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    That does not mean that light was not getting through the cloud cover, there was simply no visible sun from Earths surface.

    I really think the Genesis chapter 1 story is a chronicle of oral history passed down from the Toba catastrophe.

    I think that it is during this time that humanity made a moral leap in communication related to trust and honesty that allowed the development of more complex grammatical structure to language, and thus able to transfer more information and more complex thought.

    There have been experiments in teaching monkeys how to sign, and observing them to see if they develop more complex language. Essentially they would sign single words, or modified words, but not anything more complex like a sentence. And this was because the monkeys would not trust each other. So if a monkey signed 'food next room' the target monkey would simply ignore the assertion unless it could directly see the food and then it would act on that info.

    And so language never became a survival tool for the apes and it looks very likely that early modern man may have had similar limitations until the Toba catastrophe, and in order to survive, many think mankind learned to trust in the language and communication of other humans, based on the assumption of honesty and accuracy.

    And so the first humans that could make moral choices and understand complex moral thought were these early survivors of Toba, and they were the Adam and Eve of Genesis. The dangerous snakes that would stalk trees for food were Satan tempting them to learn language to avoid attack.

    Just a theory.

    How do we know if they could speak?

    When did language evolve?
    Because language can not ‘fossilise’, scientists have to rely on purely circumstantial evidence when trying to determine the language and speech capabilities of our ancient ancestors. This has led to continued debates as to when language evolved. There are two main views – some scientists believe language appeared suddenly, and is limited to our own species. Others claim language evolved slowly over the last 2 million years and was not restricted to our own species.

    Those who support a sudden development of language focus on archaeological evidence of behaviour that could be connected to language use. Much of this evidence appears only in the last 40,000 years and includes the manufacture of highly complex tools, the production of symbolic art and the existence of widespread trade systems.

    By contrast, those who claim language evolved slowly base their argument on skeletal remains and the evidence of structures related to speech production. Certain physical features associated with spoken language, such as the position of the vocal tract, the structure of the brain and the size of the spinal cord, gradually evolved into the modern human form. This evidence is seen to indicate an increasing ability for language and speech over time....

    Neanderthals - Homo neanderthalensis
    Date: 300,000 – 28,000 years ago
    Where lived: Europe and the Middle East
    Language ability: relatively advanced language abilities, but evidence suggests that they may have had a limited vocal range compared to modern humans. If this were the case, then their ability to produce complex sounds and sentences would be affected.

    There has been considerable debate about whether Neanderthals had the capability for fully modern speech. The Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) became extinct about 28,000 years ago and it is often claimed that a reduced language ability compared with modern humans may have been a factor in their extinction.

    Evidence for and against their language ability is based on analyses of their skeletal remains and the artefacts that they left behind.

    Neanderthal art

    Neanderthals left little in the way of symbolic art, an indication that their thought processes, and hence language ability, were unlike that of their modern human contemporaries. Many scientists reached a similar conclusion after comparing Neanderthal vocal tracts to those of modern humans.

    Reconstructing sounds from vocal tracts

    It is possible to work out how Neanderthals may have spoken by reconstructing their vocal tracts and then comparing them with those of modern apes and modern humans.

    The vocal tract’s structure is revealed in the base of the skull. Modern apes, such as chimpanzees, have a flat skull base and a high larynx whereas modern humans have an arched skull base and a low larynx. Our low larynx allows room for an extended pharynx and this structure enables us to produce the wide range of sounds we use in speech. Neanderthal skull bases appear to be less arched than those of modern humans but more arched than those of modern apes. This suggests that the Neanderthals would have been capable of some speech but probably not the complete range of sounds that modern humans produce.

    The Neanderthal hyoid bone

    The hyoid bone is a small, U-shaped bone that attaches to the larynx at the top of the vocal tract. Fossilised hyoid bones are very rarely found, so this Neanderthal hyoid from Kebara, Israel, was a fascinating discovery. Its similarity to those of modern humans was seen as evidence by some scientists that Neanderthals possessed a modern vocal tract and were therefore capable of fully modern speech. However, recent studies show that hyoid shape is not linked to the structure of the vocal tract. Pig hyoids, for example, are almost identical to those of modern humans.

    A language gene?

    Researchers studying Neanderthal genes discovered that they shared the same version of a gene FOXP2 with modern humans. FOXP2 is the only gene known so far that plays a key role in language. When mutated, it primarily affects language without affecting other abilities. This gene appears in different forms in other vertebrates where it performs a slightly different function. This suggests the gene mutated not long before the split between the Neanderthals and modern human lines. However, there are plenty of genes involved in language so it takes more than the FOXP2 gene to prove a language ability.

    Cro-Magnons - Homo sapiens
    Date: 40,000 – 10,000 years ago
    Where lived: Europe
    Language ability: The Cro-Magnons were members of our own species, Homo sapiens. There is little reason to doubt that these people had the ability to talk and use symbolic language.

    Although Cro-Magnon people have left no evidence of written language, they produced symbolic art, performed long distance trade, held ritual burial ceremonies and planned and designed a technologically advanced tool kit.

    Art and symbolism
    Art is the earliest unambiguous evidence of symbolic behaviour and, like language, requires a shared system of meanings in order to communicate its message. Evidence of art prior to 40,000 years ago is limited and solid evidence of symbolism only occurs after this time.

    Complex tools
    The earliest tools that appear in the archaeological record 2.6 million years ago are repetitive and could have been learnt through imitating the actions of others rather than by spoken language. By comparison the Cro-Magnon tool kit was complex, varied and innovative. This reflects intentional design and planning which are the basis of complex mental processes and can be associated with language.

    Burials and ritual behaviour
    Most of the human remains are from deliberate burials and are accompanied with grave goods and covered with ochre. This is evidence for ritual behaviour and interaction with the dead, suggesting some kind of belief in an afterlife. The mental processes associated with such abstract concepts as spiritualism and religion can be associated with the capability for modern language.

    The 90,000 year-old double burial from Jebel Qafzeh, Israel is one of the earliest that shows careful placement of the deceased. Burials of modern humans become increasingly complex over time, and Cro-Magnon burials usually include grave goods and other evidence of ritual activity. This pattern of behaviour is also seen at burial sites of other modern human cultures throughout the world.

    Cro-Magnon skeletons
    The physical features associated with spoken language, such as the vocal tract, the structure of the brain and the size of the spinal cord, are identical between Cro-Magnon people and humans living today. This means that Cro-Magnon people would have been capable of producing the same sounds we use in speech.​
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  3. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    The ten plagues of Egypt | The Biomedical Scientist Magazine of the IBMS

    As children, many of us will have read how the Hebrew people living in Egypt were suffering under the cruel rule of the Pharaoh. Moses asked the Pharaoh to let them return to their homelands in Canaan, but he refused. As a consequence, 10 plagues were inflicted on the Egyptians in a divine demonstration of power and displeasure designed to persuade the Pharaoh to reverse his decision. But were the plagues historical events or, as some historians have suggested, simply passed-down accounts of several natural disasters? Some scholars concede that from an historical standpoint, the first nine plagues resemble natural events and while some are disconnected, others appear to be part of a chain reaction with set patterns and a rapid succession. The Egyptians were renowned for recording every event, whether temporal or religious in nature, but there are few references to plagues in ancient Egyptian literature. What if the plagues, however, involved villages and the countryside around Goshen, these might not have been referred to the royal court for insertion in official chronicles.

    When did the plagues occur and who was the tyrannical Pharaoh? The Greek historian Herodotus put the dates around 1570-1550 BC when Egypt was under the rule of the Hyksos (an Asiatic tribe), but there was no Pharaoh, until Ahmose I (1550-1525 BC) raised rebellion and overthrew the invaders. During this time apocalyptic rainstorms, devastated much of Egypt, and were described on the Tempest Stele of Ahmose I, these have been attributed to short-term climatic changes caused by the Thera volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini around 1630 BC (although it has also been suggested that the storm reference is merely a metaphor for the chaos caused during the war). Trevisanato (in his 2005 book The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History, and Science Look at the Bible), suggested this eruption was also the trigger event for the plagues. There are indications that the environmental effects of this eruption were felt around the globe – some scholars have also linked this eruption to the legend of Atlantis. Trevisanato believes that volcanic ash tainted the Nile causing it to become acidic and sediments found at the bottom of lakes along the Nile Delta seem to suggest that there was deposit of volcanic ash sometime during the Middle Bronze Age, which would be in line with the eruption on the Greek volcanic island. In a pre-industrial ancient Egypt, sulphates from a massive volcanic fall out would provide the simplest and most plausible scientific explanation for this contamination. A red, acidic Nile would have killed the fish, kept people from drinking from the river and, according to contemporary records, caused burns which later became infected with ‘larvae’.

    However, Alfred Edersheim proposed in his Old Testament Bible History that Thutmose II (1509-1479 BC) may have been the protagonist. In 1886 when the mummy of Thutmose II was unwrapped by Gaston Maspero there were scars from some type of infection which were still visible even after being embalmed. Maspero described the mummy as being “scabrous in patches, and covered with scars”. Lesions covered the back, waist, arms and legs of the body and there was a mixture of papules, scabs and scars. Had Thutmose II died of a disease spreading through the region at that time? Evidence exists that the Queen’s nanny, Sitre In, suffered from a similar condition. The details are very similar to descriptions of the 6th plague where “boils burst forth upon man and beast throughout the land of Egypt!” (Exodus 9.9).

    A red river
    Another candidate for the Pharaoh is Ramesses II (1303 - 1213 BC), made popular by the Hollywood epic The Ten Commandments. At this time the climate of the capital city Pi-Ramesses was wet and tropical, but towards the end of his reign the climate became dry and more desert-like. This change has been confirmed by a study of the stalagmites in local Egyptian caves, which have provided a record of the weather patterns of the time. It is possible that the Nile turned from a swiftly flowing river into a sluggish, muddy watercourse due to the rising temperatures and arid conditions. This was the basis of the 1950s naturalistic theory by Greta Hort, who proposed that certain algae in particular, Haematococcus pluvialis and Euglena sanguinea, were able to flourish in these conditions. The red colour is due to the presence of astaxanthin and under the right conditions the cells can be populous enough to turn water red. Euglena sanguinea is also known to produce the potent icthyotoxin euglenophycin. The idea of an algal bloom is also proposed by Dr Stephan Pflugmacher, who believes that when the Nile changed it allowed the toxic algae Planktothrix rubescens to thrive in the warm slow moving water. When the algae died it turned the water red causing a phenomenon called “Burgundy blood”. ​
     
  4. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    An interesting video on Thera being the likely source of the Ten Plagues.

     
  5. JimBowie1958
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    JimBowie1958 Old Fogey

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    Behavioral modernity - Wikipedia

    Behavioral modernity is a suite of behavioral and cognitive traits that distinguishes current Homo sapiens from other anatomically modern humans, hominins, and primates.[1] Although often debated, most scholars agree that modern human behavior can be characterized by abstract thinking, planning depth, symbolic behavior (e.g., art, ornamentation), music and dance, exploitation of large game, and blade technology, among others.[2][3] Underlying these behaviors and technological innovations are cognitive and cultural foundations that have been documented experimentally and ethnographically. Some of these human universal patterns are cumulative cultural adaptation, social norms, language, and extensive help and cooperation beyond close kin.[4][5] It has been argued that the development of these modern behavioral traits, in combination with the climatic conditions of the Last Glacial Maximum causing population bottlenecks, contributed to the evolutionary success of Homo sapiens worldwide relative to Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other archaic humans.[3][6]

    Arising from differences in the archaeological record, a debate continues as to whether anatomically modern humans were behaviorally modern as well. There are many theories on the evolution of behavioral modernity. These generally fall into two camps: gradualist and cognitive approaches. The Later Upper Paleolithic Model refers to the theory that modern human behavior arose through cognitive, genetic changes abruptly around 40,000–50,000 years ago.....

    Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia
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    Toba catastrophe theory
    [​IMG]
    Artist's impression of the eruption from about 42 kilometres (26 mi) above Northern Sumatra
    Volcano Toba supervolcano
    Date 74,100–75,900 years ago
    Location Sumatra, Indonesia
    [​IMG]2.6845°N 98.8756°ECoordinates: [​IMG]2.6845°N 98.8756°E
    VEI 8
    Impact Second-most recent supereruption; impact disputed
    [​IMG]
    Lake Toba is the resulting crater lake.

    The Toba supereruption was a supervolcanic eruption that occurred about 75,000 years ago at the site of present-day Lake Toba in Sumatra, Indonesia. It is one of the Earth's largest known eruptions. The Toba catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a global volcanic winter of six to ten years and possibly a 1,000-year-long cooling episode.

    In 1993, science journalist Ann Gibbons posited that a population bottleneck occurred in human evolution about 70,000 years ago, and she suggested that this was caused by the eruption. Geologist Michael R. Rampino of New York University and volcanologist Stephen Self of the University of Hawaii at Manoa support her suggestion. In 1998, the bottleneck theory was further developed by anthropologist Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign. Both the link and global winter theories are highly controversial.[1] The Toba event is the most closely studied supereruption.[2][3]

     
  6. Picaro
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    Picaro Gold Member

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    Some scholars believe the mountain of Moses stone tablet fame has been found in southwest Saudi Arabia, and was not in the Sinai at all. Still looking at that claim, personally.

    I'm not a believer, but I know all of what became the 'New Testament was written in the time period it ascribes itself, but I have some issues with the post-exilic 'books' of the OT, and hardly any with the 'pre-exilic' writings, aka 'Palestinian Judaism'.

    The claims that Judaism and Christianity were 'rip offs of earlier pagan stuff' is of course utter nonsense, just as fake as the claims that 'Gnosticism' was the original Christianity, because Walther Bauer and Elaine Pagels said so, based solely on a few ratty scrolls they found in Egypt.

    Some of the people in the OT are composites, some are real persons who existed; Moses was likely a real person, 'Daniel' probably wasn't real, but a composite, for instance. In any case, it is the writings that are important, since all of them are dead now and thus abstractions to anybody living now and aren't here to hold classes on what they meant.
     
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  7. Muhammed
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    Muhammed Gold Member

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    Johnny Appleseed was definitely a real person.
     
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  8. Indeependent
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    Indeependent Platinum Member

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    Transitioning from primordial light to a star is a downgrade.
    Earth and plant life do not have the ability to transgress God’s will and thus were capable of being created via the higher spiritual power of primordial light.
    God does not need condensed physical entities to carry out his will...angels are spiritual entities.
     
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  9. Penelope
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    Penelope Diamond Member

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    Not according to EZE 16.
    ---------------------------------------------------


    ------------------------------
    In the scripture it was anyone who was born to Jacob. Who knows!! You were all arabs with different dialects.
    ------------------------------------------

     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 7:00 AM
  10. Penelope
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    Penelope Diamond Member

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    Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia
    light reading. discovered around the same time Israel declared theirself a state.
    What do they say??
     

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